Production notes: This cassette tape was originally brought out of Afghanistan by Dennis Martino, who was with Timothy Leary there and associated with the Brotherhood of Eternal Love. It was given to Leary’s good friends Brian Barritt and Liz Elliot. It has been newly transcribed by historian Andy Roberts.
Introduction
Following Tim Leary’s escape from a Californian prison in September 1970, where he was serving a ten-year sentence for possession of marijuana, he urgently needed to find sanctuary overseas. After several months in Algeria as the guest of Black Panther Eldridge Cleaver, Leary and his wife Rosemary flew to Denmark to fulfil a speaking engagement.
Whilst changing planes at Geneva airport Leary was advised not to take the onward flight to Zurich, as it was a trap, so he remained in Switzerland until early 1973, during which time Rosemary left him and he became entangled with British hippie socialite Joanna Harcourt-Smith. From Switzerland, Leary went to Austria, where Harcourt-Smith contracted hepatitis, before flying, in mid-January 1973, to Afghanistan which had no extradition treaty with the USA and where he believed he would be safe.
Shortly after landing at Kabul airport an official from the United States embassy snatched Leary and Harcourt-Smith’s passports and Afghani officials told the pair they were to be imprisoned for trying to enter Afghanistan with no passport! A brief court appearance followed in which the judge tells Leary that he and Harcourt-Smith will be escorted to the Plaza Hotel where they will be held under house arrest until further notice.
A glimmer of hope arrived when Ali, the king of Afghanistan’s acid-loving nephew arrived with food, hash, opium and even cassettes by the Rolling Stones.1 Ali is sympathetic to Leary’s predicament and keen to help, saying ‘I have brought a tape-recorder so we can have a good talk which I can take to my uncle. He will hear your words and recognise what kind of man you are, then maybe he will give orders to set you free’2 Ali presses ‘record’ and Leary begins:
The Interview
TL: Tim Leary
JHS: Johanna Harcourt Smith
Ali: Ali, the King of Afghanistan’s nephew
TL: I was imprisoned in the United States for the crime of possession of 50 cents worth of marijuana. The real reason for my imprisonment was to silence me because I was then and still am now a leading voice of individual freedom in the United States.
I escaped from prison because I am a free man and freedom cannot be imprisoned. I escaped with the help of young people, young Americans. I went to Algeria where I was received with honour, respect, and hospitality by their government. I stayed in Algeria for seven months and left with the permission of the Algerian government to go to Switzerland. I lived in Switzerland for eighteen months in total Freedom.
The United States Government attempted to persuade the Swiss government to extradite me back to America for imprisonment, but the Swiss government refused because the nature of my crime, possession of a small amount of marijuana is punishable by a fine in Switzerland. I left Austria [sic - he means Switzerland] with Joanna on December 25th, Christmas, to go to Austria at the invitation of the Austrian government and with the approval of Chancellor Kreisky of Austria, to make a film with a group of young film makers in Vienna.
We remained in Austria for three weeks and then we decided to come to Afghanistan. During the three weeks in Austria, we helped make a film against drug addiction. We are against addiction to anything; drugs, television or anything that restricts, enslaves, or imprisons the human mind. We left Austria after three weeks to come to Afghanistan because we believed it is one of the few, if not the only, truly free country in the world where we can live in peace, say what we wish to say, and be with the people with whom we want to be.
I have been travelling since Algeria on my own passport, a valid American passport which expires in 1974. Upon my arrival at the Kabul airport the American Embassy seized my passport. This is totally illegal. The United States government has no right to seize the passport of anyone of another territory or another country and this is both a crime against Afghan law and an insult to the independence of Afghanistan.
Ali: So that’s the situation with er...
TL: I think that I should add that my beloved mate Joanna is seriously ill. She was diagnosed in Vienna as having hepatitis. We came to Afghanistan for the second reason, to find a country with fresh air and sunshine where we could live quietly and help her recuperate from her illness. Since our arrival three days ago in Afghanistan we’ve been held prisoner under the instructions of the American government. We’ve not been able to find food in this prison hotel, our friends are prohibited from visiting us.
JHS: I have been denied medication.
TL: Joanna has not been able to receive the medication she requires and we have been unable to obtain a doctor. We appeal to the people of Afghanistan and to the government of Afghanistan to recognise that we came here as free and independent people to share their friendship and independence.
JHS: I am not a prisoner here, but I will not leave Timothy for a second. I don’t want to say I am being held prisoner when it’s not true, but my life depends of being with Timothy.
TL: So many times in the last few years, it seems to us, there are very few free people in the world, people who wish to live in peace and to say what they think without harming anyone else and to live their own private lives as they feel they must. I believe Afghanistan is a country where Johanna and I will be able to think and say and feel and do what we wish which is simply a life of love and harmony and a model and example of bold courageous freedom to the rest of the world.
Ali: As an Afghan I would say on behalf of the Afghan people it’s an honour to have you here in Afghanistan and we’re going to do our best to prove that we are an independent and neutral country.
JHS: If this country belongs to America then we shall be sent back to it. If this country is neutral, we should be able to walk out of here in a few hours.
Ali: Exactly. We are going to try and take you out of here. To show you a little of the country. I do have some questions about LSD to ask, for instance what do you think is going to be the effect, the power of LSD on a primitive country like Afghanistan?
JHS: We do not carry LSD. We have no LSD with us.
TL: We did not come to Afghanistan to give LSD or to recommend people take it. LSD is without question the most powerful mind changing neurological chemical yet discovered by mankind. Like a jet engine or like a rocket ship it is an energy which can be used only by the strong, only by the disciplined, only by those who are willing to take the risks, to push back the frontiers of knowledge. I have never recommended that people take LSD. I simply say, as I am saying now, that like the microscope or a telescope or atomic energy it is a fearful, awesome, dangerous power for those who are strong enough and beautiful enough and courageous enough and committed enough to want to take this knowledge into the future.
In twenty or thirty or forty years from now LSD or chemicals like it will be as commonly used as aspirin is today. At the present time as we all know the world is sick, the world is run by insane men seeking power and wealth. In an atmosphere of this sort only the truly beautiful, courageous people really use it, people from the future are those who can and are using LSD. So far from advocating LSD I repeat again as I have in the past, this is for those who are living in time, living in the future and who are not going to be enslaved by the past and the powers of the present.
Ali: Thank you. What do you think about metamorphosis?
TL: We believe that the human species is evolving, and we believe that every individual has the chance to make many evolutions in his lifetime. We believe that at a certain stage it will be possible for a human being to metamorphize from a working, suffering, war-making animal to a free spirit just as the caterpillar metamorphoses into a butterfly.
We feel we know we will have done this, whether the world can allow a few free spirits flying high and wide to show it can be done when the world right now can let us live, is not our business, and history will prove that we have shown probably the only way for the human race to go which is higher and higher, farther and farther, stronger and stronger. And the energy that moves us, totally, is the energy of love and we can never get away from the energy of love [which] Johanna and I have so far [found] in our lives individually and we’ve now found perfect love and this love is keeping both of us alive, [it] has brought us here and whatever our next move is from Afghan it will be together and will be motivated and fuelled by the only thing that makes life worth living, which is love. And LSD or any other drug is useless if not used and harnessed for the energy of truth and love and beauty.
Ali: What do you think of living the rest of your life in Afghanistan, with Johanna?
TL: Well, we can make no commitments about the rest of our lives. We feel we are visitors on this planet now. We fly freely. We hope, we hope, that there is one country where a man and woman can live in harmony and peace and freedom. We don’t come here with any political ambitions to change things here. We wish to be left alone to have babies and to make a new life. There are very few countries, perhaps Afghanistan is the only country because it’s a tribal country where the families, not national politics and economics and socialism and capitalism and these low-level political games, run things.
We’d heard that Afghanistan was a country where men were strong and women were truly dedicated to the service of family and loving union. That’s why we came here. One night in this prison hotel we looked at each other and said why did we come to Afghanistan, which for many reasons would seem ridiculous. Why did we come here? We came here because we are hoping that the Afghan people are what we expected, strong men and strong women dedicated to the love of family and freedom and independence.
Ali: How do you feel about your exile period?
TL: It’s an honour to be in exile. We believe that the United States Government, and I’d say the same thing to the Russian government, are monstrous instruments causing warfare and pollution and destruction throughout the world. I consider it an honour to become one of the first American exiles. I think when the history of this century is written those few people who had the courage to stand up against the American government and make no compromise with this government of Nixon, those few of us who had to live as exiles will be seen for what we are, the only free independent true Americans around. It’s an honour to be in exile from America.
Ali: Thank you very much Timothy. We are going to try our best to help you.
TL: I would say this. The police are the same everywhere and there’s an international police conspiracy, the police in America, the police in Russia, the police in China, the police in Afghanistan. I know the last three days have been a holiday here and the honourable and the good men who are in this country are not aware of what’s happening. I know that tomorrow when they hear our situation that we will walk out of here free and independent people ready to join them in a life of goodness.
Ali: Many people wait for you outside. Many people know already that you are here, and Johanna.
TL: I will say this. The world is watching Joanna and I and the world knows or soon will know that we are here and the world is watching to see if Afghanistan is going to treat us as we are, honest people, and I’m sure they will. But the world is watching to see what Afghanistan will do and I know Afghanistan will give us freedom and independence here.
Ali: We are a free country. We are a neutral sanctuary, and we hope to help you get out of this bad situation. [Ari has a brief conversation in his language with another Afghan in the room, possibly a police or government official]. So, they are keeping you here as to be safe from people which want to hurt you, they are just trying to keep you out of the reach of…
TL: I would like to say one thing. I’ve always been free and even when I was seven months in an American prison, I was free every second. Like an animal in a cage I was waiting for that time when I could escape and I was never for one second a prisoner and I will not be taken back to America and I say this to the American government or any government that is listening to this, I will not leave this country alive.
JHS: I will not either.
TL: I will never for one second live as a prisoner and I will die, I will die, before I go back to America and if the Afghan government or any other government or any airline or the American FBI want to take that on their conscience let them do it but I will not return to America except as a free man when America’s a free country and if they try to take me back by force they will take back a free spirit but a dead body because I will not return and live as a prisoner in that country of slavery.
JHS: I am British, and my name is Joanna Harcourt Smith and I will not live one minute without Timothy so I will die too.
Ali: Can you take a picture of me and Timothy together?
JHS: Yeah, sure.
[Very muffled conversation about taking the photograph]
Ali: How has this affected the young people in the States, how are they affected?
JHS: I’ve been in the States since Timothy has left, he left two years ago. In the States they love him, and they respect him there’s no feeling of hate it’s all love and he really loves the people, and they all love him and anything that could happen to Timothy could be very serious for the United States.
TL: I think that I do exist as a symbol of freedom. Not everyone may agree with what I do, and certainly that’s part of freedom, everyone is individual and does things in their own way, so that I have no followers, I am not a political leader but I think that every young person who is interested in freedom will recognise me as one of the few symbols of freedom and how they react to that is their own problem not mine, because I ask nothing from them and offer myself as only one possible model of a man who will not be imprisoned by mental or political or economic chains.
Ali: What do you think about Richard [Alpert] and Ralph Metzner?
TL: They are old friends of mine and made great discoveries with me in the early days of consciousness expansion in the United States. We are always in very close touch, they have chosen different paths. I respect their paths, and they respect mine. I wish them love and hope to see them soon.
Ali: What’s your thoughts about your period in Harvard, how was it?
TL: Well I was doing research in psychology at Harvard University and found out that certain drugs can be used as research tools to help us understand the mind but that these research tools must be used by the individuals themselves, not by doctors experimenting on other peoples’ minds. When we were at Harvard, we taught thousands of people how to use drugs wisely and for their own benefit and to help mankind. What happened there of course was natural. We became much too popular and too many people listened to out voice of freedom and independence and so I had to leave. I never intended to stay at Harvard. I’m not a professor in the sense of being a University professor. I enjoyed my days at Harvard, I respect Harvard University, [it] is wonderful place, but I was not a full-time University professor and never intended to be.
Ali: What do you want do, what are you supposed to do, after Afghanistan? Would you go back to Switzerland?
TL: We never know. We feel this planet, Earth, should be a playground, should be a garden of joy and love and we try to make the planet Earth that. We have no plans from Afghanistan, we hope we can stay here and find rest and freedom. We may never leave Afghanistan, and we have no plans specifically to go from here.
Ali: [Muffled and fragmented conversation with Tim and Johanna about what sort of food they want. Tim requests bottled water and six sandwiches from the Intercontinental hotel. Ali tells them he will make them some sandwiches and some vegetable soup. Tim asks if Ali will phone a doctor to ask what kind of foods are suitable for a hepatitis sufferer. Ali tells him no fat, no milk, no fried foods, and suggests fruit and vegetables and tells them he will make them some thick vegetable soup].
TL: You must get some rest yourself as I know you have been working night and day for us.
Ali: No, no, I have been working for freedom.
TL: I know, I know. We thank you and we love you and everywhere we have gone we have found throughout the world, although there are policemen everywhere, there’s an army, there’s a legion, there are millions of young people like yourselves who just want the same things that we want. We knew we would find you here, we didn’t know what your name would be, but in every country there’s a noble young man like yourself waiting to help and to share with us and we’re happy to be here with you.
Ali: I wanted to ask you a very personal question. What do you think about art today, what you call art, how does art fit in your work?
TL: We think that the profession of art, like saying you’re an artist, is ridiculous because that means you’re making social or a bureaucratic occupation of it. For us everything is art. Every movement and dance, every sound you make and hear in music, everything we say we try to make it as poetic and as literary as we can, we try to have our surroundings as full of beauty as possible. The three things that keep us going are beauty, love, and freedom.
Ali: What do you think about children?
TL: We hope to have many children. There’s a big so-called problem in the world today of over population. This problem can be solved by consciousness. When men and women and truly free in their minds they don’t have babies like factories produce cars, blindly. Children born out of high consciousness and true love are rare and they should be encouraged. But blind mating and filling the world up with unwanted and unplanned for facsimiles of robots is going to cause a problem. There’s no problem with over population of true beautiful babies born in love and consciousness and we want more of them and Johanna and I plan to have more of them and wish from the bottom of our hearts that you have the same.
Ali: I have three children and all I can give them is love.
TL: We thank you and look forward to the days and hours we can be together in freedom and harmony and sharing in a more relaxed place the beauties we have to share with each other. And to all of our young friends both Afghani and foreigners here in Kabul and in Afghan we look forward to the next few days being able to see you and to share freedom with you.
Ali: Thank you very much.
TL: We have received messages from all over the world and we give thanks to those who send them, and we send love and blessings, we love you.
Ali: Thank you
Aftermath
A day later, several soldiers escorted Leary and Harcourt-Smith from their hotel room to Kabul airport. Believing initially that Ali had enabled their freedom, Leary was ecstatic but on arrival at the airport he was met by Terence Burke from the American Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs who greeted Leary with a cheery, ‘Burke’s the name, dope’s the game’. And for Leary the game was over.
He had his passport returned with all pages cancelled, now only valid for a one-way journey to the USA. Attempts to claim asylum in Britain when the plane stopped at Heathrow airport failed and Leary was returned to the USA where he stood trial and five years imprisonment was added to his original ten-year sentence. Leary served his sentence in Folsom Prison and was released on 21 April 1976, the brevity of his sentence being attributed to him giving evidence against former colleagues.
This is presumably Prince Ali Seraj
Greenfield, Robert (2006) Timothy Leary: A Biography. Orlando: Harcourt Books. 450
Photo: Timothy Leary & Joanna Harcourt-Smith in Vienna en route to Kabul, Dec. 1972. Photo: Christian Englaender for Rolling Stone
(h/t: https://boingboing.net/2017/08/30/interview-with-timothy-leary-a.html; originally: www.timothylearyarchives.org/acid-bodhisattva/ [defunct, sadly])
Brilliant Andy. Thank you.